Transportation Exchange presented by Rush Truck Centres of Canada
If you’re in the transportation industry, the Transportation Exchange podcast is for you. Listen in for insightful conversations with industry leaders covering what keeps us moving, from equipment and maintenance for fleets to new and upcoming regulations and opinions on the industry as it stands today and the road ahead.
Transportation Exchange presented by Rush Truck Centres of Canada
Navigating 2027 Emissions Standards with Cummins
Christoph Horn, Fleet Account Executive at Cummins, joins us to unveil the company’s next-generation engine roadmap through 2027. From the all-new Octane 6.7L to the powerful X15, Christoph shares how Cummins is driving advancements in power, fuel efficiency, and durability. He also provides insights into the current regulatory landscape and what it means for fleet planning across the industry. Tune in now to learn more.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transportation Exchange podcast presented by Rush Trucks and Canada. I'm your host, Jason Cuddy, and we welcome back this time Christoph Horn, who is the fleet account executive at Cummins. Christoph, welcome back.
Christoph Horn:Well, thanks a lot, Jason, Really happy to be here, and I know we've tried to get together a few times over the last little while and you know sorry it took so long, but I think the timing's perfect right. Like we got new products launching next year, even more launching in 2027, and some big news with regards to the 15-liter product as well Not so much changing with the product, but some changes with regards to timing, which I'd love to get out to yourself and to your listeners.
Jason Cuddy:Correct. Yeah, there's a lot going on and you know, behind the scenes there's been a lot of movement in the industry. But I think the main focus really here is the concrete stuff, which is, you know, different products you guys are launching specifically for 27. You know, so we've got a little bit of a window first, but it's nice to kind of understand what's coming so customers can kind of prep and see what the big changes are. I guess maybe we'll start on the medium-duty side let's start with. I guess we'll go from smallest to biggest. Let's talk about the B6.7, which everyone knows and loves. What is the changes?
Christoph Horn:Yeah. So starting with the B makes a lot of sense, not just because it's the smallest, but because that's the one that's going to not so much change next. But there's a new entering the market on the B side, so it's the product that we launched or sorry, we didn't launch. We announced last March at the Work Truck Show it goes into production January of next year. It's the Octane, so it's the simplicity of gasoline with the reliability, durability and performance of diesel.
Jason Cuddy:Nice.
Christoph Horn:You know we can't just launch a gasoline engine, have to make it diesel-like, which it certainly is. So it's a 6.7 liter inline-six turbocharged gasoline engine, simple after-treatment that you'd expect with a gasoline engine, so there's no doc, dpf or scr and you know, from a performance standpoint very much like diesel, as I mentioned. So ratings up to 300 horsepower, 600 foot pounds of torque, and when you compare that, that rating, that in that torque, to a traditional V8 gasoline engine, you notice that it occurs at lower engine speeds much more diesel-like feel to the product. Also, with the technology and the architecture of the engine, we're going to see about a 10% improvement in fuel economy versus a traditional V8 gasoline engine as well. So you know, from an application standpoint you know vocational applications it'll be a really nice fit there.
Jason Cuddy:Yeah, and especially a lot of high idle. We have a lot of customers who do that, where they don't necessarily need the power per se, but the island cost, especially with the diesel stuff, becomes an issue. So having similar power is great, but, yeah, it opens up a different market obviously. But the fuel economy savings versus a standard V8 that you would normally have in a vehicle that size is incredibly significant.
Christoph Horn:Yeah, it is yeah, and a lot of customers that are operating in those applications are quite excited for the Octane to roll off the line and they can start utilizing and getting each of those benefits.
Jason Cuddy:That would be neat and so obviously, with that coming in it kind of for lack of better words kind of displaces the current diesel model. Where is the diesel model headed as we move into 2027?
Christoph Horn:Yeah, so there's still going to be a diesel B engine. The change will happen in 2027. B engine the change will happen in 2027. We're going to sunset the 6.7 liter and go to a new block with new components, a 7.2 liter, b6.7 engine. And there's really three main reasons for switching from the 6.7 to the 7.2. The first is increases with regards to fuel efficiency.
Christoph Horn:So what we're doing is we're dropping rated engine speed and peak engine speed, but in order to keep the rating similar to what we have today and actually increase the torque and horsepower available, we needed to increase the size of the engine, the displacement. So the number one is fuel efficiency, greenhouse gas related. Number two is nox emissions. Right, a lot of the products today not not even just speaking about cummins, but you know there are some significant changes occurring and the products need to be reflective in those changes. So increasing the size of the displacement reduces peak engine temperatures, which which reduces NOx emissions Gotcha, the other emission-related component that not a lot of people know about, but there's robustness requirements. And the 7.2 liter going from a 7.2 to a 6.7 to a 7.2, sorry increases the robustness of the product, gotcha. And then lastly and this is probably not good etiquette on a podcast, but I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. The 9-liter is going away.
Jason Cuddy:Right.
Christoph Horn:So we needed the B to be a little more robust and have higher ratings to accommodate for the ratings that we're going to lose on. The replaces the 9,. But we do need that B to be a little bit more capable and slide into some of those 9-liter ratings that will no longer be so. The 7.2 will go all the way up to 360 horsepower, 1,000 foot-pounds of torque, whereas the 9, you know it was all the way down to sorry 260 to 860. Gotcha, so that's so much, you know. It moves up into those 9-liter ratings, those low 9-liter ratings, quite nicely.
Jason Cuddy:That'll be interesting because I mean there are some customers that kind of straddle that line right. I mean traditionally we'd have, you know, a single axle medium-duty truck would have the B6.7, a tandem by default. You usually got the L9 just because of the perceived weight that's going to be on it. But now there's that potential where that tandem customer can run with a 7.2, don't need all that displacement. Obviously there'll be some fuel savings versus a 9 liter from the traditional way. So that could be pretty exciting for different customers where they can kind of step down in displacement size but not really lose any of the performance and power.
Christoph Horn:That's right, and you're going to gain some weights or you're going to benefit from the weight savings as well. That's a good point. Yes.
Jason Cuddy:So then, with you know, as you mentioned the L9, so obviously that is transitioning as well for 27. What can we expect?
Christoph Horn:Yeah, so the L9, there's twofold. So we're going to straddle medium duty and heavy duty here. The new product is called the and it will replace both the L9 and the X12 come 2027. Gotcha, right. So there's going to be two hardware sets for the X10. There's going to be the productivity series hardware set and there's going to be the performance series hardware set, gotcha. So the productivity series is more or less the L9 ratings from the past and then the performance ratings are the X12 ratings from the past. And then where do we see the product fitting in? You know we call it the workhorse and it's really going to take on that mantra, right the same as the L9. So heavy vocational focus, you know some P&D work, but vocational transit bus, refuse truck, vac truck. But then also with the performance ratings, ratings are going to go up to 450, 1650. So also a capable engine in a tractor application, especially if we're thinking about weight sensitive day cab, day cab work.
Jason Cuddy:It'll fit quite nicely in there as well that's pretty impressive, yeah, because if you're kind of merging the two into one, you got to kind of cover all lines. But that's good to know, because that's always. You know people are concerned okay to you know the displacement's coming down so I'm losing power, but you're right up there almost with you know where, where that size and you know the 12 liters play in yeah, yeah and and then the the product is it's already in production today globally.
Christoph Horn:Okay, um, so, for those who aren't aware, all of our engines for north america are made in north america, so the x10 will be made, just like the l9 is today in rocky mount, north carolina. We north americanize it and it's currently in test and then, once we go to full production, it'll be made in Rocky Mountain.
Jason Cuddy:Nice. And then I guess the last one to talk about is kind of the bread and butter Everyone goes to, it defaults to with you guys, which is the X15. Nomenclature is staying, but there's still again for 27. Are some changes? Yeah?
Christoph Horn:And before we talk about the product itself, I think we should talk about the timing and I alluded to it off the top. The plan was and I think anyone who's in the heavy duty industry likely aware certainly you're aware if you have someone from Cummins that you work with the plan was to launch that product and bring the benefits of that product to market in 2026. We recently made some changes and decided, rather than launching it in 2026, we would launch in 2027 along with the other products that we're bringing to market at that time. And the reason for that, you know, is twofold for the most part. One is, you know, economic. You know the pressures continue to be applied with regards to economic pressures and you know you just had James in, I'm sure you talked about that, you know he can continue to have those conversations with you he's perfect for that but, yeah, those are really disrupting the buying cycle with regards to our customers right now.
Christoph Horn:And the second is from a regulatory standpoint is from a regulatory standpoint, 2027 is still happening. We're aware of that. But what happened, and what customers may not be aware, is that a month ago, six weeks ago, donald Trump signed the CRA, the Congressional Review Act, and what that did is it revoked CARB mandates, specifically Omnibus, which was a low NOx rule for between now and 2027 that CARB had implemented at 50 milligrams. It also revoked advanced clean truck, which was the mandate that stated that OEMs and dealers had to sell a certain percentage of zero emission vehicles before they could unlock internal combustion diesel sales.
Christoph Horn:And then, thirdly, this wasn't part of CRA but CARB didn't pursue advanced clean fleet, which was the mandate that they were considering bringing about to ensure that fleets were purchasing zero-emission vehicles that they wanted to operate and travel into California. So that decision and that change brought about the fact that originally we were going to be able to sell 200 milligram trucks in 46 states. With that change we're able to sell 200 milligram, or current production, I should say engines, in 49 states, Gotcha, Every state other than California. So we really saw a decrease in the need or the demand for the product. So the decision was made and I'll reiterate it to continue operating the current product that we know today all the way through to the end of 2026 and then switch over to the 2027 x15 in 2027 gotcha, and yeah, those 2027 epa guidelines are still in place, despite everything else that has changed.
Jason Cuddy:Yeah, you know, stuff still keeps moving. You know that's the, the unknown, but clearly the 27, every oem is so invested that you know that's not going away. Um, but then that's where I guess the X-15, the first main changeover, comes into play.
Christoph Horn:Yes, yes, and I should just mention as well for fleets, that we're looking forward to the we called it the pull ahead provision. We are still making a limited production of the product in Q4 of 2026.
Christoph Horn:So that's the 27 product will go into limited production, but during that time we'll still be making the 200 milligram product as well, so there is going to be a little bit available. But by and large, 2026 will be all 200 milligram production. Then, as you mentioned, 2027, the whole product range. The diesel product range then flips over um to to the products that we were just discussing gotcha and then tied to that.
Jason Cuddy:You guys have made some changes to that block as well and kind of how it interacts with not just diesel, obviously yes, as you go forward, maybe explain a little bit of what's sure that is yeah sure.
Christoph Horn:So that's a. We could do a whole podcast on that true so the the, specifically the x15 um it's.
Christoph Horn:It's been in global production for a number of years. I believe we've got 58,000 of them globally produced and 7.3 billion miles on them. But we first brought that product to North America and launched the natural gas engine in 2024. So this will be the diesel variant and it will replace the current diesel product, as mentioned in 27. And it is a new block design versus what we had before. So the current product is a legacy product that's essentially carried on since 98 when we launched the Signature 600. So, yeah, it's coming up for a refresh. We've launched a Signature 600. So, yeah, it's coming up for a refresh. And, yeah, the new block is lighter, significantly lighter than the other product.
Christoph Horn:Just base engine alone. Reduction of parasitic losses we're anticipating to see about a 4% fuel economy improvement, base engine alone. And then also on top of that, we you know we bought meritor jv with eaton, so we've got uh driveline as well. That we're that. We're making uh additional uh fuel efficiency improvements to uh. We're probably gonna see about seven percent driveline related improvement for 27. So very significant improvements. And then everything that you know, navistar and our oem partners do with regards to aerodynamic would just be over and above so, some really significant savings that we're going to see there with regards to fuel economy improvements on the X15.
Jason Cuddy:Which is nice, because I know everyone's always challenged with, especially when you get to different EPA. Bumps in the technology Obviously there's cost involved, and it is what it is. Bumps in the technology Obviously there's cost involved, it is what it is, but it's nice to see to some aspect, although, yes, there is a bit of a cost increase as we go into these new technologies. What it keeps doing, though, is creating an offset of a cost reduction in fuel savings, and you're not talking small numbers, you're saying potentially five to seven. By having an all-in driveline with your engine paired with the Endurant and with the Meritor axles, and then, yeah, with the OEM, has you know? Then you take some weight out of the vehicle, you put on aero and you match that up with trailer packages, like you can see significant fuel savings as you roll into 27. So, despite the uptick in, you know capital costs of the vehicle. You know over the long term, you know it should be very beneficial to most fleets.
Christoph Horn:Yeah, and that's kind of how I mentioned. You know we're delaying some of the benefits, unfortunately, of the next generation product. But you know, from an economic standpoint, from a regulatory standpoint, probably the right decision, and then you know we'll eventually get there when 2027 hits.
Jason Cuddy:Yeah, and I think part of you know by keeping it static up until 27,. I know you know to your point we'd have Menzies in before talking about. You know what the year looked like and everyone you know. Before the slowdown happened, everyone was predicting. You know, this year into mid-december next year was your big pre-buy. Yeah, and no one's seen that yet. But you know this may also will help with this because obviously if you're not doing kind of that mid cycle bump halfway through next year, obviously the cost stays fairly static.
Christoph Horn:Yes.
Jason Cuddy:Up until 27. So that may help encourage the pre-buy to some extent as well, potentially.
Christoph Horn:Yeah, I think it depends a little bit on what the freight market does. But you know, from a commons perspective, fleets certainly have longer if they wish to purchase the current product before going to the next generation, 2027, I should say X15. Yeah, yeah, so it'll be interesting. Yeah.
Jason Cuddy:There's definitely lots to look forward to. But you know, that's why we want to have you on, just kind of get an overview of what's coming down the pipe, right, so people can start planning. You're at, you know, as we're talking now it's the middle of the summer. So planning you're at. You know, as we're talking now it's the middle of the summer. So you know, fleets start putting together their budgets and their numbers for 26, right. So this is good, at least so they know what the market looks like for 26 and then obviously, what what's coming down for 27, and they can, you know, plan accordingly of. You know how much they want to get it now, before later. And then, hey, maybe hold off and take advantage of, you know, something like the x10 or you know, or the b7.2, and that may help take some fuel costs out. This gives them a better way to kind of potentially manage their fleet over the next couple of years, given the technology that's coming down the pipe.
Christoph Horn:Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, and I think this wasn't an easy decision from Cummins. We'd been looking at doing that for that other strategy for a little while, but, um, it was about the last possible moment that we could, that we could make this switch, even from, like, a supply perspective. Right, because you know we do need to to plan ahead from that regards. And yeah, and then it's, it's going to be the same. Um, there, you go.
Jason Cuddy:So we've got some stability in the market. For now we do, yes, which is great. Hey well, look, I appreciate you coming on and sharing this information. It's always good to have you guys come in and kind of give us a temperature check of the industry what's happening technology-wise, and you guys have a lot going on, especially coming for 27. So I really appreciate you sharing that with us.
Christoph Horn:Thanks, jason, appreciate it. Thank you.
Jason Cuddy:And that does conclude today's episode. To catch past episodes, check out transportationexchangepodcastca. Until next time, thanks for watching.